05.17.07
White People with Big Shelves
Yesterday two of my Western friends came into the barbershop. In a business which involves a lot of sitting around and waiting, having friends of employees drop by is not an unusual occurrence. Naturally, the first response my friends had to seeing me with spiky hair and a shop apron was to laugh. This is to be expected, as there is a definite degree of humor in what I am doing.
I invited them into the shop to sit down for a chat. As we sat down at one of the tables, Mr. Zheng came to sit down at the table, as he usually does when a guest arrives. Although he cannot speak English, Mr. Zheng’s astute posture and hand motions indicated welcoming respect for his foreign guests. I turned to my friends and gave the introduction.
“This is my boss Mr. Zheng.”
“Ni hao.” Mr. Zheng responded to them, giving them the hands clenched together gesture which implies respect and welcoming.
“Oh hey,” one of my friends responded barely even turning a head to Mr. Zheng. The other gave a quick “ni hao” and continued to joke about my apron.
“Yeah, if you keep working here, you should get some cool black shoes like him,” the she said pointing to Mr. Zheng’s shoes. They both cracked up.
I have no problem with my friends mocking my own appearance, but to have my boss mocked in his own store right in front of my face, by people I had invited in put me in an awkward state.
I respect Mr. Zheng as much as any authority figure I have ever dealt with in China. He sits in his leadership position not because he was born into money or used his guanxi (connections), but because he put in years of 11 hour days and worked his way up from the very bottom. The employees see this, our customers see this, and I see this, but when my Western friends come into the store, they are oblivious. It puts me in the odd situation of inviting my friends into the shop, having my superior give them face, and then having my friends throw it right back at him.
This was not an isolated incident. Over the course of my tenure in the barbershop I have been visited by several friends, both Westerners and Chinese, and their behaviors (there are some exceptions) are strikingly different. When my Western friends visit me in the store, they talk loudly, they walk all around the store or stand in the middle of the doorway, and they treat my colleagues as if they are non-existent. Granted, there is the obvious language barrier, but there is much more to communication that verbal expression. When my Chinese friends visit the store, they wait for Mr. Zheng to invite them to have a seat, they speak at reasonable volumes, and they give my colleagues the respect (both physically and verbally) expected for fellow members of the human race.
Last night I was chatting with Mr. Zheng in front of the store and brought up this topic. I told him what I had noticed about my foreign guests, and here is how he responded.
“Foreigners come to China and they feel like they come from a wealthy country, but live in a developing country. They wear expensive name-brand clothes, and we wear cheap clothes, and they feel like they can treat us however they want.”
Had I heard this statement two weeks ago I would have dismissed it as simple ignorance or casual racism, but after working in the barbershop, I am beginning to understand why Mr. Zheng, and many other Chinese people have these sentiments. During the course of our conversation, the concept of 架子 (jia4 zi) was brought up. Literally 架子 means shelf, but saying somebody has a big shelf in Chinese means that they have an air of superiority to others. There are Chinese customers as well who come into our shop with a big shelf, but I have not seen any with shelves as big as my Western friends.
I do not believe most Westerners in China consciously feel superior to Chinese people, but after living in China for an extended period of time, it is possible that we do get spoiled by the copious amounts of respect and face presented to us. When we take this respect for granted or don’t give it back, it can leave a bad impression. I know my friends who came into the store do not intentionally look down upon Chinese people, but their actions revealed a different story. While I do not condone racism on any level, it is starting to become more apparent to me why resentful feelings towards Westerners develop in the minds of Chinese people who have casual contact with us. After all, it’s not easy to go unnoticed when you walk all day carrying a big shelf on your back wherever you go.
dezza
said,
May 17, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Very interesting observations and I have noticed this 架子stuff too. But i’d say for the wealthy set in China they would carry a bigger shelf than westerners living in China. This is because money is the operative word: if you have money, you can hire lots of people, treat them like crap and they have to take it. It’s not only within China too, many foreign countries have complained about the lack of manners from Chinese as well.
I just think it’s your particular western and Chinese friends that are acting the way you described. It all depends who you know..
As for the ‘copious amounts of respect and face presented to us’ that is the difference between west and east. Face is important in Asia while in the west it’s not a concept that plays much importance. I mean face to Asians is literally a life or death issue.
Ron Frost
said,
May 17, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I don’t know about the general case, but I don’t think the event you described is a case of looking down on Chinese people – if you’ve ever worked in the service industry in the West, you will know that people behave like that over there too. When I was in England it wasn’t too uncommon for friends who came to my workplace (either to visit me or to buy something) would behave in a similar way, ignoring or paying minimum attention to colleagues, laughing at dress sense and uniforms etc. It’s rude, but your friends would probably act in the same way if you were working in an American shop with an American boss and colleagues – you shouldn’t assume that racism is to blame.
james
said,
May 17, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Ok so the moral of your story is; Westerners don’t be assclowns because we already all are?
Or hey whitey English teacher from Nebraska just cause you got that sick pad at the school and the salary thats double…no triple the local average, don’t be acting a fool at McDonalds cause the McNugget packs come in 5 and not 6?
Or is it; don’t make fun of people who cut hair, because they have scissors, and they all talk to each other, just like dolphins, no wait I mean bees…or whatever and sooner or later you’ll need to get your haircut, and that’s when they strike. En masse.
Matt Schiavenza
said,
May 17, 2007 at 3:38 pm
I have a family friend who is a season-ticket holder for the San Francisco Giants (my local professional baseball team, for readers who aren’t American). He attends forty or so games every year, sitting always in the same section: second deck, down the third base line. Usually, he goes alone though occasionally he invites us or some of his other friends along.
I’ve gone with him several times, and the reaction he gets when he walks through the concourse and past the concession stands is truly remarkable. Every single hot-dog vendor, bartender, or usher greets him enthusiastically by name. He stops with each of them and chats, calling them by their name and occasionally greeting them with a hug. He is especially kind to a hot-dog vendor named Jonathan, a young man who suffers from a mild form of autism. Jonathan always greets Scott and asks him what method of transportation he took to get to the game. It’s rather sweet.
My family friend isn’t a saint, or a particularly extraordinary person in other respects. He’s a middle aged retired lawyer, a bachelor, a gourmet food cook, and a big fan of the Rolling Stones. Yet the first time anyone goes to a game with him and experiences his routine, people react with shock and admiration.
It’s funny, isn’t it- most of the time, being friendly with people you deal with regularly doesn’t surprise anyone. But by changing the status to service person/customer, the relationship suddenly becomes perfunctory and impersonal.
(I realize this is an unusually sentimental comment from me, but Ben brings up a good point. Why do we as foreigners treat the Chinese people we deal with as invisible automatons?)
davesgonechina
said,
May 17, 2007 at 3:44 pm
First, let me just say I’m glued to this whole series. Great work.
I don’t know if money is what’s involved with your friends, as Dezza suggests, though I agree there certainly are some Chinese who have a very big shelf. Often I find that this behavior from Westerners arises because of the communication barrier, and is due to an unwillingness or inability to interact with Chinese society. Sometimes this is because a Westerner comes to China without a burning desire to learn about the language or culture around them (they simply want to make money or have a vacation without engaging in any significant cultural learning), sometimes because they are unable to figure out how to manage in a culture where most of the pop-culture references or shared interests that they can use to bridge gaps in, say, Europe, are useless, and sometimes because they do want to learn about the culture or language but feel stymied due to a) a steep learning curve or b) they find themselves surrounded by people who are not well-suited as guides (e.g. English teachers at schools that have no facilities for properly training and educating foreigners about China. These schools are legion.)
Add to this that assumptions that Chinese people make about Westerners, and vice versa, often feed into one another. Your boss assumes that your friends act the way they do for economic reasons. But perhaps your friends are from working class backgrounds in their native countries, don’t wear name-brand clothes, and have attempted to learn Chinese but too often find themselves stereotyped as wealthy, arrogant or simply too “laowai” to comprehend and became discouraged or even bitter. Both sides resign themselves to believing the gap is too great.
If I were you, I would’ve translated your friends joke right then and there to your boss, and apologized. Then I would’ve told your friends that I did, and said that I had to get back to work. Perhaps then your friends would realize that what they said was rude and inappropriate, and that if it weren’t for the language barrier they wouldn’t have said it. It would, of course, make everyone uncomfortable, but that’s kinda the point.
bezdomny ex patria » Blog Archive » 架子
said,
May 17, 2007 at 4:53 pm
[...] I came across this via Matt’s blog, which is a little odd considering Ben’s blog is also on my list of daily reads (and Ben’s blog has been bloody interesting since he started work at the barbershop), but whatever, check this post out. Very thought provoking. And check out Matt’s own post in which he reflects on Ben’s reflections. This could, and should, I think, turn into a very interesting discussion. Right now I don’t have anything to add, myself, just think I should point you in the direction of those two posts. Posted by wangbo Filed in Uncategorized [...]
hyperdx
said,
May 17, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Hey! Just found out about your blog! What a great read and hope you keep those interesting stories rollin’ in.
Harry
said,
May 17, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Hi Ben, I’m a random reader (also living in China) and I thought this was your best barbershop blog to date. Your entire project is interesting and admirable but I found this post particularly poignant. It is also a brave small stand against the kind of ill-respect you document and I hope your friends in question read and absorb your observations.
On the post itself, I agree with you in many respects. I have certainly witnessed some disparity in humbleness as offered during interpersonal communication between Westerners (less so) and Chinese (more so).
On the other hand, as Dezza mentioned, it equally often has to do with who you know. I have many western friends who treat the locals with utmost respect. As a former teacher in ‘anonymous-oversized-township’ China I am well aware that what passes for ‘friends’ often has more to do with shared language and circumstance than discriminating choice among people. Also, it seems a universal truth that people who travel to extremely foreign locales for short periods of time don’t make strident efforts to be ingratiating or notably kind. For better and worse, travel is often a break not only from work but also moderated morality, something that is as much true for Chinese tourists in the west (or even domestically) as it is for westerners in China (of course, I don’t know the circumstances of your friends in particular).
Additionally, I would like to point out that while there are fine examples like Mr. Zheng to hold up for our inspection, there are also many examples of Chinese callousness to stand as counterpoints. I have often found myself marveling, particularly during the Shanghai morning rush hour, at just how so many people can act so selfishly all at once.
I have heard it said, and experienced to varying degrees, that ‘face’ and respect are traits liberally applied/tended to with regard to the work and family units, but not much elsewhere. By way of example, I would ask: Mr. Zheng may project all the kindness and honor in the world when money is on the line (to customers and employees, both of whom he relies upon for his well-being) but how does he treat the homeless, or a fellow passenger on his daily commute?
长舟丫
said,
May 17, 2007 at 10:43 pm
That was ignorant. Poke them with curling tongs until they go away. Hot ones. I’m glad you talked to Mr. Zheng about it.
I adore what you’re doing. I was thinking yesterday in class (I’m kind of going to some literature classes in a Chinese university) that my Chinese classmates are unlikely to have the same attitude to foreigners that their parents’ generation does – what you could call the “I saw some of you foreigners today” 看法. But they’d be even more comfortable with “foreigners” if they had lots of them as classmates. I think more Westerners studying in China can only be good – even if half of them are mildly dysfunctional, treat China like a playground and amuse themselves by being obnoxious to taxi drivers – but what you’re doing is kind of taking it an extra step.
The shelves have given me pause for thought too. There’s nothing worse than a shelf, especially when you think of what it would be like if you suddenly lost it, if you suddenly weren’t foreign, bumbling and important (male) or intrinsically fascinating (female) any more. I think the only thing that worries me much about spending time in China is how the shelf defines me. Maybe that’s another reason why I adore reading this blog.
Yueting
said,
May 18, 2007 at 12:15 am
I think this comes back to the “class” topic I had mentioned the other day in the barbershop. As it is well known, China has a long feudal history. The discrimination concept, no matter self-conscious or not, tends not to be as vicious as it were under the rule of imperial power, but such an occasional “shelf incident” was still redolent of that former time. I even do not believe most people in the world consciously feel superior to others. Everyone is born equal, at least this is written in everyone’s textbook. But some of them just get spoiled. It is not the problem of the western guys in China, who probably will act quite differently in their own country. Also it is not the problem of the “upper class” or “lower class” itself in China. It is the problem of the social environment.
Cate
said,
May 18, 2007 at 4:26 am
Hi Ben – really like your barber blogs. Your friends strike me as having poor manners rather than as racists. It is true though, some westerners have a superiority complex in China. But it is in part, I believe, fueled by some local Chinese’s inferiority complex and Chinese culture’s tendency to place price tags (身价）on human lives (wealthy city dwellers are treated much better than poor countryside peasants). For example, a Chinese-American friend was once told by a local waitress to give up her order (which happened to be the last one) in favor of a white person. Also, if they are meeting with both Chinese and white representatives from a foreign company, some Chinese tend to automatically assume that the white person is more important within the foreign company than the Chinese person.
I guess the bottom line is, we should pay proper respect to all of our fellow human beings – regardless of their race/ethnicity, country of origin, social status, etc. People with “shelf” complex are frankly silly and immature.
Odadrek
said,
May 18, 2007 at 9:56 pm
I’m a random reader of what I find is a worthwhile subject for discussion… I’ve lived in China for a few years and speak reasonable conversational Chinese. I’ve always tried to be respectful to Chinese people, but I think it’s possible I’ve been unnecessarily rude on occasions. I think that would be because where ever I go in the small cities I have lived in, I’m always the center of attention. This can make me feel like I’m on stage, and people are expecting some kind of performance which can affect on my behaviour in a couple of different ways. Firstly, if I’m in a good mood, I might try to jokes more than I would back home. It’s possible sometimes such jokes have been in poor taste. Or alternatively always being the centre of attention can just make you want to escape. You can get tired of people always paying way more attention to you than your want… Maybe your friends just didn’t want the attention, or the potential invitation to teach someone’s kid English, be in an advertisement, go out to dinner, or didn’t want to go through a routine of saying that they like Chinese food and can use chopsticks. That doesn’t excuse being rude, but to be honest, I don’t find their behaviour surprising.
Personally, if I could choose look Asian and not have the privileges and attention that come with being white, I would. Can’t speak for your friends though.
On a different note, I strongly disagree with this: “As for the ‘copious amounts of respect and face presented to us’ that is the difference between west and east. Face is important in Asia while in the west it’s not a concept that plays much importance. I mean face to Asians is literally a life or death issue.”
My opinion is that Westerns value face just as much as Asians do. But face in the West is manifested in different ways (and differently in different parts of “the West”)
michael
said,
May 18, 2007 at 10:49 pm
I recognise the scenario but I think you overlook the fact that Chinese bai jiazi [put on airs] to the nth degree more than westerners. I’m assuming your western friends don’t click their fingers to summon a waitress etc. In China anyone with a bit of money acts like they are a big laoban and treats others accordingly.
China Law Blog
said,
May 19, 2007 at 3:09 am
Fantastic post. My parents told me the best way to judge people is to see how they treat those who they perceive do not matter to them. Your friends’ disrespect to the culture in which they live and to the living manifestations of that culture (your boss and your co-employees) is both disrespectful and telling.
M.
said,
May 19, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Hi there!
I have to agree with everyone that your post is really interesting.
Could you translate the comments and show them to your boss? I wonder what he would think about the comments.
匿名
said,
May 19, 2007 at 12:49 pm
是啊，我是一个在美国学习的中国学生。
我在美国收到的歧视和美国等西方人在中国对中国人的优越感，真让人感到悲哀。
匿名 says:
Yes, I agree. I am a Chinese student studying in the US. I have experienced racism in the US and the feeling of superiority from Westerners in China. It’s really pathetic.
Hope I got this right
-Ben
laolao
said,
May 19, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Keep up the good work. If I was in China at the moment, I’d roll in for a trim.
My home is in Jiangsu, and I have lived in China since 2001. In my opinion, you should have translated what they said. Then confronted them along the lines of “WTF Dudes. That’s my boss you’re talking about.”
They’re making fun of the man right in front of him was childish and immature.
Based upon reading your blog this last week, I’d say you’re a little classier than that. Consider upgrading your friends habits, or upgrade friends.
Keep up the good work, and CLB is right about the book. If I had wrote down everything that happened to me and what I learned in the last 7 years, it would be one helluva good read.
laolao
said,
May 19, 2007 at 2:37 pm
One last thing. Tell Mr. Zheng that I said “Thanks” for sharing his life and culture to you. A lot of people are depending on you to spread it around.
Handan
said,
May 19, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Excellent post and interesting comments.
I’m afraid Ben’s simplified and mixed up things, though.
I’ll start with my agreement with Ron Frost. Ron’s saying something to the effect that there could be another explanation for the lack of respect your western friends show to Mr Zheng and your colleagues, one that has little to do with wealth or looking down upon the neglected. It’s more the us VS others thing. Which side is richer or more privilaged (or at least generally perceived so) is not quite relevant here.
What “getting spoiled by the copious amounts of respect and face presented to us(westerners in China)” does is emboldening some into deeper unconsciousness of their blatant rudeness, like pointing at Mr Zheng’s shoes while mocking at him. While I can easily imagine some visiting Chinese friends of a Chinese trainer at an American barber’s shop making fun of the American boss’s bald head, I wouldn’t bet on their pointing fingers at him. They won’t, cuz they don’t feel secure enough, living as a developing country migrant in a super power country, to do so. It’s about sense of security. While the disrespect in making fun of someone remains the same in these two cases, it takes different manifestations, in Ben’s story bolder, in my scenario checked, for reasons as I’ve ventured above.
It’d also be interesting to suppose that the Chinese friend visitor to the American hair salon DO go as bold as Ben’s friends. Would the American boss make the observation that Chinese people look down upon us Americans? Or is he more likely to scorn them off, saying, “ah, these poorly educated Chinese people. No manners at all.” If you think the latter is more likely the case, think why the difference in conclusions drawn from seemingly identical situations?
Paul Souders
said,
May 19, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I’d like to point out that the Westerners living abroad are hardly typical of ALL Westerners. I am disheartened at the attitude of entitlement displayed by many of my fellow expats.
Also: I take some issue with the previous comment that “Face is important in Asia while in the west it’s not a concept that plays much importance.” I heard this or something like it many times before moving to China and was surprised to see how it actually works. Of course Westerners have Face, but our definition of Face is very different. It is “me” centered: I build Face by being effective, efficient, honest, diligent, etc. To lose Face in the West is to prove yourself untrustworthy or incompetent. Think of how important vengeance is as a theme in Western movies: the villain harms the hero, so the hero harms the villain back.
I think Chinese Face is “you” centered: I give you face by extending you a courtesy. Failing to extend Face to someone else doesn’t harm ME, but it does harm EVERYONE ELSE, which is why everyone else is so interested in guarding Face! You can’t *build* it, you have to *receive* it. Think of the way villains in Chinese movies act: there’s always a scene early on where they humiliate the hero. Later (usually just before the big showdown), the villain attempts to humiliate the hero again, who will pointedly NOT rise to the challenge!
Paul Reynolds
said,
May 19, 2007 at 8:02 pm
You use the word ‘Western’ as if it is one country. It isn’t. I think you will find most Continental European young people would be more polite and ’situation conscious’. The majority of British people too would be more polite. I don’t know if your ‘friends’ are from the US, but the inbuilt contempt that many Americans have for people in ‘foreign’ countries can manifest itself in this type of behaviour.
Benjamin Ross
said,
May 20, 2007 at 1:03 am
Dezza says:
Very interesting observations and I have noticed this 架子stuff too. But i’d say for the wealthy set in China they would carry a bigger shelf than westerners living in China.
This sentiment has been echoed by several other comments as well, and in some ways I agree. The rich Chinese (everybody who patronizes the store) vs. the poor Chinese (everybody who works in the store) presents another interesting dichotomy, which I plan to write about in an upcoming post. I should mention that by excluding this from this article, my attention was not to say that the 架子 only comes from Westerners.
Kevin S.
said,
May 20, 2007 at 9:30 am
I stayed in a Chinese friend’s village home once. His family had never seen a white person in the flesh before. They gathered around just staring at me and commenting on how white my skin was, the light color (brown, actually) of my hair and eyes, my height, my speech – all in the third person, right in front of me.
More than once my Chinese colleagues have remarked in Chinese about how we foreign English teachers can’t read Chinese, right there in front of us, with us in the third person. It’s true that my foreign colleagues can’t, but I can.
I’ve seen Americans do this to Chinese people too. For example, my mother-in-law (she’s Chinese) lives with my wife and me, and when non-Chinese speaking Americans come to my apartment for a visit they will sometimes make a comment about her in the third person (nothing rude) right there in front of her.
To be honest, I’ve done this myself to non-English speaking people. Sometimes, in retrospect, I have felt quite embarrassed about my actions.
I think that this phenomenon has a lot to do with a communication and cultural barrier. Though, I also think that your friends should be respectful to your boss. As you say, “there is much more to communication than verbal expression.”
Handan
said,
May 20, 2007 at 11:35 am
A speaker of both Shanghai and Ningbo dialects, I’ve observed on numerous occassions that natives in these two cities comment on Mandarin-only speakers in the third person right in front of them.
Does this help dillute the unproportional concentration on the generalised Westner-Chinese contrast?
chriswaugh_bj
said,
May 20, 2007 at 4:25 pm
@Paul Reynolds: Um, no, sorry. Although in my experience French people are more likely to learn Chinese and speak it well than Americans, British, or my fellow Kiwis, I would not break down this rude behaviour into different subsets of “Western”. In my experience, you Europeans are just as rude as everybody else. Sorry ’bout that.
@CLB: Your parents are very wise.
@Everybody: Sure, this behaviour is not limited to “Westerners” in China, and yes, we have all been guilty of this kind of arrogance at some time or another, but that doesn’t excuse the rudeness.
Barber Shop Antics | Sinosplice: Life in China
said,
May 21, 2007 at 12:18 am
[...] White people with big shelves [...]
trevelyan
said,
May 21, 2007 at 2:33 pm
坏的不去, 好的不来. 去找更了解客气的朋友.
laolao
said,
May 21, 2007 at 7:06 pm
@chriswaugh_bj- I would have to 100% disagree with you, as it relates to temporary or long-term expats in licing in China learning Chinese.
I have found French to learn the LEAST Chinese of any other group of indivuiduals from Europe.
And I can base that on a pool of 20+ French expats versus 20+ German and British.
Shopgirl's Shanghai blog
said,
May 21, 2007 at 8:14 pm
GREAT BLOG ENTRY
dogbert
said,
May 22, 2007 at 11:46 am
“I don’t know if your ‘friends’ are from the US, but the inbuilt contempt that many Americans have for people in ‘foreign’ countries can manifest itself in this type of behaviour.”
The concept of “The White Man’s Burden” is, of course, English.
I’m certain it was borne with the utmost politeness.
jc@Shanghai
said,
May 22, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Just came accross and think this is a very good blogging effort. I would agree/disagree with each comments to a different degree but I enjoy reading all of them and think the discussing itself is a great thing.
Whether Chinese (I’m one) or “Westerner” we just have to be aware that we’re all at either sides of some cultural barrier (or in the middle of it) and it is up to us ourselves to cover the gap if we’re to live happily together to share this globlized world. Frustrations (admit that I do somehow feel more frustrated with my felllow countrymen’s behavior) have to be overcome in order to see/feel/enjoy the better part of each culture.
Thanks!
Megan
said,
May 22, 2007 at 11:56 pm
I think one point people are neglecting is the role of insecurity. Independent of Chinese or Western tendencies, I can imagine that walking into the shop and finding you there — competent in the language, established in your working relationships, “going native” to a certain extent — your friends might have felt like awkward, culturally incompetent outsiders. (You didn’t clarify whether they spoke Chinese, but it seemed like they didn’t — at least, not as well as you.) I consider their response a natural, if immature and hurtful, strategy for dispelling self-consciousness. By ridiculing your boss and failing to meet him on his own linguistic and cultural terms, they were excluding him from the interaction, but at the same time forcing him to play audience to their chummy exchange with you. It’s something I’ve seen a lot in groups of foreigners in any place: using each other to excuse themselves from the expectation of behaving appropriately, because if they tried in earnest to fit in, they’d risk falling short.
Mike
said,
May 23, 2007 at 10:50 am
In China, as in my home country, I try to treat everyone the same, regardless.
How about the group of foreigners that treat the regular folk, the laobaixin, with respect but treat rich Chinese and other foreigners with contempt… what’s that about?
Hunter
said,
May 23, 2007 at 4:09 pm
There’re so many explanations here, trying to say it’s not a racism or they’re not intentionally to be rude. Some points may make sense.
But, as a Chinese, I just want to point it out, Ben observed a very true fact that, there are many (if not the most) Chinese feeling and thinking westerners (esp. Americans) are believing their superiority. Sometimes, even they behave politely, I still can feel the Westerners’ superiority or snobbishness. I had such experiences. It hasn’t much things to do with politeness or manner, it’s about the heart.
Law Office of Todd L. Platek
said,
May 23, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I represent a lot of Chinese companies in NY/NJ area, and Americans who deal with them. Recently, at a luncheon in a great steakhouse in NY I arranged for a Chinese client and American client , both of whom also do business with each other with me in the middle as lawyer, the two Chinese guests paid deferential lip service to the American at the table (i.e. the other American, not me), but spent the other 90% of the time speaking with me in Chinese. Since my Mandarin is fluent, no problem, right? That’s not the point. I constantly spoke some English in between, hoping the Chinese would get the message and involve the other American, who was politely eating his steak, in the conversations. Result? They DIDN’T get the point.
So, as a 54-year old American who’s been in China/Taiwan for the last 30 years and with his own former guilt complex about how we Americans are insensitive to others’ cultural feelings, I can safely tell you that all people are the same. The key is to be sensitive and less ethnocentric, no matter whether non-Chinese or Chinese. Oh, by the way, the Chinese finished the meal heartily, thanked the other American also, and they are still doing good business with the other fellow, and begrudgingly using English to do so.
Bill
said,
May 23, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Hi There,
I dont see this as a Western vs. Chinese issue. With all due respects, your friends sound like ignorant brats. Most likely young English teachers from the US. And your boss has a whole theory about Westerners because he hasnt met that many or the few he has met were complaining when he almost ran over them with his car at the pedestrian crossing. In any case, the most obnoxious bastards you meet here are not the white trash that has poured on Shanghai since 2004 (your friends) but the officials in the big black cars and rich “entrepreneurs” (those who stole SOE’s assets).
I know your post has had a lot of success – good comments all over the internet, especially in China-related blogs (that how I came here). Congrats for that but I think your analysis is incorrect.
Cheers and keep up the good work at the barbershop
Law Office of Todd L. Platek
said,
May 24, 2007 at 5:37 am
Ben, you’re doing it right. Wish I was your age again. When I was, I went native in Taiwan for 3 years (Mao wouldn’t let us in at that time) and just kept an open mind. Doing the “nice Jewish boy” routine also helps. Neither side is superior or inferior, just different. But, hey, play the American card as much as possible with the girls, what the heck!
zuraffo
said,
May 24, 2007 at 12:52 pm
This is an interesting entry. I have read all the comments and I found many valid points among them. However, I think it wouldn’t be fair to explain it along the racial divide, even if it did occur more frequently along that line.
Speaking personally, I am always concious that whenever I go to somebody else’s shop/workplace/company/etc, I am a guest and the employers (and employees, to a lesser extend) are the hosts. I would expect certain kind of respect to be given on both side. Many people nowadays seemed unconcious about the role of host/guest.
Bill
said,
May 24, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Doing the “nice Jewish boy” routine also helps. Neither side is superior or inferior, just different.
———
Ever heard about Israel and the chosen people who rule that place? But sure, in China, being Jewish does help – ethnic purity, superiority are some of the values that Chinese share with the,. Sionist organizations are, as you may know, very active in this country (but then again, so are various other US-sponsored sects – including Amway and Herbalife). Did I mention the blackstone deal?
Believe it or not, but posting this could get me into major trouble under the laws of my country (heavy fines, losing my job etc).
MF
said,
May 24, 2007 at 11:34 pm
If your so-called friends visit your shop and make a few jokes, and if that upsets your, are they really your friends? I think you should have a serious talk with them. What do you mean by “friends” and why do you judge them so severely!
In the west, we have many words for friends, indicating closeness or distance. It seems to me that these people were not very close friends. So, they came to your shop, and made jokes. It seems you cannot take a joke. If you cannot talk to them seriously then do not use the word “friends”.
Why are you upset? Are your “friends” basically “white trash” living in Shanghai? Come on, why do you call them your friends.
A lot of Chinese are all over the world, doing their thing. If people start calling overseas Chinese “Chinese trash”, maybe you would be very hurt. Here in Japan there are certainly a lot of Chinese with a big shelf. I am not Japanese, I am from Europe, and one thing I can notice is that Chinese here in Japan are not so good at the old adage, “When in Rome, do as the Romans”.
Just Some Advice
said,
May 26, 2007 at 12:51 pm
You need to find better western friends.
Dushka
said,
May 26, 2007 at 9:58 pm
You get people of every race & nationality on the planet that are rude & ignorant. Some times it can be blamed on cultural differences, but the majority of the time it is a lack of manners & respect.
I currently work in a bakers in a small tourist town in the UK. We get tourists from all over the world coming in to our shop. Some people are pleasant others deem you to be beneath them because you work in a shop serving them. Several foreign customers come & struggle to speak a word of English, so you have to spend more time helping them with their order using facial expressions & other methods of communication. Many of them smile back at you & nod, others though grunt, shout out instructions in their own language & barely acknowledge the time you have taken to help. At the end of the day people from completely different cultural backgrounds & who speak different languages can still be polite to each other in they try. It is all about taking the time to show one another respect.
Rudeness is not just a Chinese or Western problem it is a global problem. Great blog by the way.
i lirve in beijing
said,
May 27, 2007 at 3:42 pm
My situation is different: I’m a student here studying Chinese, so my friends all speak at least some level of Chinese and have some level of interest in the language and culture here.
But from my experience foreigners here respect the 外地人 in service jobs a lot more than my beijing friends. I think it’s because most of my western friends probably have worked in some service jobs back when they were in the west, and know what annoying customers are like, while a lot of young beijing kids live off their parents’ money until they graduate from university, and head straight into white-collar positions using their extended family’s guanxi. There are good and bad people in every lot, of course.
Your experiment is interesting. I think it’s worth it that you do this: the knowledge, wisdom, and entertainment gained through this surely outweighs the apparent patronizing aspects.
Superiority Complex
said,
May 30, 2007 at 12:49 pm
It’s an interesting experiment, and as is suggested above, when you write a book about it in two years, you should be able to make decent money off the royalties. I’m an American living here, and I feel that I’m reasonably culturally sensitive, I’ve studied Chinese for 7 years, living in the greater China area for 3 of those, and I have to say that I can’t understand all the hate for American expats. Maybe it’s because I am an American expat, and I’m just too big headed to see how corrupt and disrespectful we all are, but in my experience, I have found much more friendly culturally conscious people among American expats than any other group. Again, it’s probably just my own bias, but I think continental Europeans, with the possible exception of Germans, have been some of the least culturally conscious people I’ve met here.