Comments on: Journey Across the Great Hump of China: Debunking the Myth that Chinese is the World’s Most Difficult Language http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/ Urban Sociology and Urbanism, in China and North America Fri, 04 May 2012 09:48:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Ariel Pao http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-54954 Ariel Pao Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:40:23 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-54954 Great analysis! Just to piggyback on the hard part– pronunciation. I think it is hard for non-Mandarin speakers to learn 破音字, words with different pronunciations depending on the context (The rule is more pronounced in Japanese). For example, pian2 yi2 便宜(cheap) versus fang1 bian4 方便 (convenient). Also, you have to change the tone of certain words because it is unnatural to speak two words at the 3rd tone one after another. For instance, jie3 jie 姊姊(sister) guan2 li3 管理 (manage; management). Great analysis! Just to piggyback on the hard part– pronunciation. I think it is hard for non-Mandarin speakers to learn 破音字, words with different pronunciations depending on the context (The rule is more pronounced in Japanese). For example, pian2 yi2 便宜(cheap) versus fang1 bian4 方便 (convenient).
Also, you have to change the tone of certain words because it is unnatural to speak two words at the 3rd tone one after another. For instance, jie3 jie 姊姊(sister) guan2 li3 管理 (manage; management).

]]> By: chinannah http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-54278 chinannah Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:36:05 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-54278 Hi Ben, Thanks for this great post! I\'m a native English speaker who fell in love with Chinese about eight years ago. I\'ve been studying and living in Chinese speaking areas off and on since then, and now I\'m an aspiring Mandarin teacher. It will soon be my task to convince students and administrators that Chinese is a worthwhile language to study and not THAT hard. Thanks for clearly and succinctly writing about all the reasons why! Anna H. Hi Ben,

Thanks for this great post! I\’m a native English speaker who fell in love with Chinese about eight years ago. I\’ve been studying and living in Chinese speaking areas off and on since then, and now I\’m an aspiring Mandarin teacher. It will soon be my task to convince students and administrators that Chinese is a worthwhile language to study and not THAT hard. Thanks for clearly and succinctly writing about all the reasons why!

Anna H.

]]> By: Rupert Pupnick http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-54114 Rupert Pupnick Tue, 26 Apr 2011 17:54:18 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-54114 Hi Ben, As an amateur linguist a bit short of two years learning Chinese (and, I sense, significantly behind where you were at that point in your studies), I wanted to offer what I found to be a more helpful way of thinking about what you refer to as "tenses", particularly when you look back at English from the standpoint of a Chinese learner. I've heard the term tense-aspect-mood used to describe the idea you are writing about. Tense is the temporal state (past, present, or future), aspect its state (completed or imperfect), and mood being the speakers "feelings" about what is being said (indicative, subjunctive, imperative, interrogative, conditional). Once I wrapped my brain around these ideas, the concept of the subjunctive in Romance languages, or "le" (aspect particle) in Chinese all became part of a greater whole which I found much easier to understand. Rupe Hi Ben,

As an amateur linguist a bit short of two years learning Chinese (and,
I sense, significantly behind where you were at that point in your studies), I wanted to offer what I found to be a more helpful way of
thinking about what you refer to as “tenses”, particularly when you
look back at English from the standpoint of a Chinese learner.

I’ve heard the term tense-aspect-mood used to describe the idea you
are writing about. Tense is the temporal state (past, present, or future), aspect its state (completed or imperfect), and mood being the speakers “feelings” about what is being said (indicative, subjunctive, imperative, interrogative, conditional).

Once I wrapped my brain around these ideas, the concept of the subjunctive in Romance languages, or “le” (aspect particle) in Chinese all became part of a greater whole which I found much easier to understand.

Rupe

]]> By: Leo Fu http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-54049 Leo Fu Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:10:04 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-54049 My focus is on sharing Chinese character knowledge in a logical and evolutionary way which reduces every character into the one or several smallest meaningful unit, like building blocks. They are not strokes, not radicals, but roots as we call them. The roots are crystalized scenes of the moment that Chinese ancestors created characters. That is to say we could restore the very moment of Chinese ancient life by analysing roots therefore pinning down the core meaning of roots backed by logical reasoning and archaeological evidence against traditonal method which just repeated the explainations in the ancient books by sages like Confucius and Xu Shen (许慎）. Since the roots are the ones with meaningful scenes which distinguished from the strokes ------formal sturctures components ------ and from radicals ------ the products of pragmatic compansation for compilation of dictionary, the course of characters can be entertaining and idea-provoking and interactive. According to the natures of different roots, we categorized roots into several groups, such as roots related to Human body, roots sex organ, roots animals, roots plants, roots natural environment, roots tools and so on. Becasue of the new starting point, I have totally confidence on this kind of method and on the belief that this will be a revolution in learning characters! I hope we can have a chance to talk deeply. :) I am looking forward to your response :) Best Regards Leo my email address is beyondcharacter@163.com My focus is on sharing Chinese character knowledge in a logical and evolutionary way which reduces every character into the one or several smallest meaningful unit, like building blocks. They are not strokes, not radicals, but roots as we call them.
The roots are crystalized scenes of the moment that Chinese ancestors created characters. That is to say we could restore the very moment of Chinese ancient life by analysing roots therefore pinning down the core meaning of roots backed by logical reasoning and archaeological evidence against traditonal method which just repeated the explainations in the ancient books by sages like Confucius and Xu Shen (许慎）.
Since the roots are the ones with meaningful scenes which distinguished from the strokes ——formal sturctures components —— and from radicals —— the products of pragmatic compansation for compilation of dictionary, the course of characters can be entertaining and idea-provoking and interactive.
According to the natures of different roots, we categorized roots into several groups, such as roots related to Human body, roots sex organ, roots animals, roots plants, roots natural environment, roots tools and so on.
Becasue of the new starting point, I have totally confidence on this kind of method and on the belief that this will be a revolution in learning characters!
I hope we can have a chance to talk deeply. :)
I am looking forward to your response :)
Best Regards
Leo
my email address is beyondcharacter@163.com

]]> By: Why Learning Chinese Is Hard | Sinosplice http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-53781 Why Learning Chinese Is Hard | Sinosplice Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:43:48 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-53781 [...] Journey Across the Great Hump of China: Debunking the Myth that Chinese is the World’s Most Diffic... by Ben Ross [...] [...] Journey Across the Great Hump of China: Debunking the Myth that Chinese is the World’s Most Diffic… by Ben Ross [...]

]]> By: Nathan http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-52745 Nathan Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:31:41 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-52745 There was an interesting article i read comparing Japanese and Mandarin. Which one is more difficult. It had some underlining points, that most people argeed with. That if you study a week with Mandarin vs Japanese you will beable to use your Mandarin less in the real world than if you studied Japanese for a week. This is because the tones of mandarin combined with the bad pronounciation makes it really hard for locals to understand you. However learning Mandarin at the start is easier than japenese because of the grammar points as japanese grammar hits you like a huge right hook at the very start.However after that first bump of grammar(which will last for a few months) it actually gets easier where the difficult of the tones will last for years. I have had mandarin lessons in shanghai for about a year and my tones are terrible however most of the time if you put what you want to say in context then you get people to understand you.Also im one of those lazy mandarin studens who don't study the characters :( What do you think ? There was an interesting article i read comparing Japanese and Mandarin. Which one is more difficult.

It had some underlining points, that most people argeed with. That if you study a week with Mandarin vs Japanese you will beable to use your Mandarin less in the real world than if you studied Japanese for a week.
This is because the tones of mandarin combined with the bad pronounciation makes it really hard for locals to understand you.

However learning Mandarin at the start is easier than japenese because of the grammar points as japanese grammar hits you like a huge right hook at the very start.However after that first bump of grammar(which will last for a few months) it actually gets easier where the difficult of the tones will last for years.

I have had mandarin lessons in shanghai for about a year and my tones are terrible however most of the time if you put what you want to say in context then you get people to understand you.Also im one of those lazy mandarin studens who don’t study the characters :(

What do you think ?

]]> By: Benjamin Ross http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-52519 Benjamin Ross Tue, 18 May 2010 19:00:12 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-52519 @Anonymous In my opinion, being good at a language and being good at *teaching* a language are two different skills, so I don't think any score on the HSK necessarily qualifies one to be a good teacher. @Anonymous
In my opinion, being good at a language and being good at *teaching* a language are two different skills, so I don’t think any score on the HSK necessarily qualifies one to be a good teacher.

]]> By: Anonymous http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-52516 Anonymous Tue, 18 May 2010 17:11:23 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-52516 Hi Ben, I might assume that if you score 8 for the HSK, you can be a good teacher! Hi Ben,
I might assume that if you score 8 for the HSK, you can be a good teacher!

]]> By: Benjamin Ross http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-52469 Benjamin Ross Fri, 14 May 2010 23:14:08 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-52469 Mariana- I started studying Chinese when I moved to China in spring of 2004. If my memory serves me correctly, I was at about 1300 characters about a year and a half into it, at which point I lost one of my notebooks, and thus stopped keeping track. As of now, I would estimate I know somewhere between 2000 and 3000, but I truly have no idea. I think you are on the right pace though. 1000 characters per year (approx 3 per day) is a very reasonable rate to learn. However I want to stress that while there is some correlation, learning characters and learning how to speak are two very separate skill sets. Being good at one does not mean you are good at the other. As for the different meanings, Chinese is just like any other language in that there are lots of homonyms. English has a ton of them too. It's just one of those hiccups that goes with the territory of learning a language. Don't worry about the news. Comprehending newscaster Chinese is a very high level skill, and one that I would also argue doesn't have a whole ton of practical value unless you are very, very advanced. Stick with television series. You will find them easier to understand, and the language you learn will be more applicable to daily life. Learning English is not easy either, and the fact you have explained your ideas so clearly in arguably the world's most illogical languages makes me confident you can learn Chinese too. Whenever you get frustrated with Chinese, just sit back and think about all those tenses, irregular verbs, articles, and spelling conventions you labored over while studying English. Mariana-

I started studying Chinese when I moved to China in spring of 2004. If my memory serves me correctly, I was at about 1300 characters about a year and a half into it, at which point I lost one of my notebooks, and thus stopped keeping track. As of now, I would estimate I know somewhere between 2000 and 3000, but I truly have no idea.

I think you are on the right pace though. 1000 characters per year (approx 3 per day) is a very reasonable rate to learn. However I want to stress that while there is some correlation, learning characters and learning how to speak are two very separate skill sets. Being good at one does not mean you are good at the other. As for the different meanings, Chinese is just like any other language in that there are lots of homonyms. English has a ton of them too. It’s just one of those hiccups that goes with the territory of learning a language. Don’t worry about the news. Comprehending newscaster Chinese is a very high level skill, and one that I would also argue doesn’t have a whole ton of practical value unless you are very, very advanced. Stick with television series. You will find them easier to understand, and the language you learn will be more applicable to daily life. Learning English is not easy either, and the fact you have explained your ideas so clearly in arguably the world’s most illogical languages makes me confident you can learn Chinese too. Whenever you get frustrated with Chinese, just sit back and think about all those tenses, irregular verbs, articles, and spelling conventions you labored over while studying English.

]]> By: mariana http://benross.net/wordpress/journey-across-the-great-hump-of-china-debunking-the-myth-that-chinese-is-the-world%e2%80%99s-most-difficult-language/2009/10/29/comment-page-1/#comment-52468 mariana Fri, 14 May 2010 18:11:13 +0000 http://benross.net/wordpress/?p=1117#comment-52468 Hi Ben, nice to read your blog! However, I wonder..how long have you been studying chinese in China, intensely? Please let me know your capability in Chinese? How many characters you could recognize within 3.5 years? Based on your own experience, how many characters we should understand before we can make a real conversation (in a working environment, phone business conversation) without being frustrated and look up the dictionary to look for sheng ci before doing each of the conv? I happened to study Chinese in China for 1.5 years, and now I am in my home country. I could recognize around 1000 - 1500 characters still, after 3 years of leaving China. I believe this knowledge is the same as while I was in my last year in China. The main reason why I decided to go back for good is...I still remember, there was a time when I feel so sick of seeing the characters and decided to put it off. I was depressed!I mean it! For some characters, they are almost similar, but the tones are different, and different meanings. I watched news, but I could understand nothing but hearing mumbling grumbling different mono syllablic words intensely spoken. I salute all of you who can stand the ma ma ma ma and those bi shun that already make me tou teng and left me with no choice other than hui guo. Sorry for my bad english, I myself is not an english native speaker but I can say that learning English is much easier. Hi Ben, nice to read your blog!

However, I wonder..how long have you been studying chinese in China, intensely?
Please let me know your capability in Chinese? How many characters you could recognize within 3.5 years? Based on your own experience, how many characters we should understand before we can make a real conversation (in a working environment, phone business conversation) without being frustrated and look up the dictionary to look for sheng ci before doing each of the conv?

I happened to study Chinese in China for 1.5 years, and now I am in my home country. I could recognize around 1000 – 1500 characters still, after 3 years of leaving China. I believe this knowledge is the same as while I was in my last year in China.

The main reason why I decided to go back for good is…I still remember, there was a time when I feel so sick of seeing the characters and decided to put it off. I was depressed!I mean it! For some characters, they are almost similar, but the tones are different, and different meanings. I watched news, but I could understand nothing but hearing mumbling grumbling different mono syllablic words intensely spoken.

I salute all of you who can stand the ma ma ma ma and those bi shun that already make me tou teng and left me with no choice other than hui guo.

Sorry for my bad english, I myself is not an english native speaker but I can say that learning English is much easier.

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