04.17.07
Don’t forget to say “please” and “thank you.”
Last night I went out to dinner with a large group of both Chinese and Westerners. Two of the Westerners were a couple who had only been in China for one month. They had been eagerly studying Chinese, and whenever a new dish came out, they would ask one of the Chinese hosts what it was called, and have them write the name down on a piece of paper in both pinyin and characters. After each new word, the couple repeatedly thanked their host with multiple xie xie’s. This excessive thanking would be appropriate, if not expected, in a Western context, but in China it comes off awkward. Why? Because Chinese rarely say “please” and “thank you” (谢谢 and 请) for small tasks when dealing with friends.
This does not mean that Chinese people are rude or lack courtesy. Rather, the usage of these “courtesy” words varies across culture. If you do a small favor for a Chinese friend, chances are (unless he is trying to over-compensate for culture difference) he will not thank you directly. Here is the logic. The two of you are friends. It is only natural for you to help one another out. Thanking is not necessary because helping each other out is what friends do.
Here’s a simple example. Let’s look at a typical exchange from a Western dinner table, compared with a Chinese dinner table.
eating dinner in the West.
Person A: “Would you please pass the potatoes?”
Person B: “Here you go.”
Person A: “Thanks.”
eating dinner in China
Person A: “Give me the potatoes.”
Person B: (passes the potatoes, no response)
The general consensus is that Westerners communicate more directly than Chinese people. However, in this situation, the converse is true. If a Chinese person were to ask 请问你能不能把那个土豆给我一下 (Would you please pass me the potatoes?), to his friend or family member, it would give the impression that the relationship between the two is not strong, thus the need for “over politeness.” In the West, “over politeness” is the default. For us, simply saying “Give me the potatoes” sounds rude.
Saying “thank you” to a close Chinese friend who is not familiar with Western culture will often leave you with a reply like “Why are you thanking me? Are we not good friends?” This can be a difficult linguistic concept for Westerners to grasp, as we are taught from childhood to say “please” and “thank you” for virtually everything. Saying “thank you” after somebody passes you the potatoes is only natural, but for Chinese these “politeness” words are usually reserved for service people, or unfamiliar acquaintances.
When we learn a language, we need to remember that learning the context of words and phrases is just as important as learning their meanings. Just because 谢谢 has the same literal meaning as “thank you” does not mean that it will have the same effect when put into use in a real situation.
James Chiang
said,
April 17, 2007 at 11:55 am
Yes, you’re quite right. When we learn a language, we need to remember that learning the context of words and phrases is just as important as learning their meanings.
The English word DEAR can be translated into Chiese word “亲爱的”. I think the westerner call their family member DEAR, HONEY, etc. But if you’re Chinese, you often say “亲爱的”“亲爱的”. 真他妈的肉麻！(by the way,the meaning of 肉麻 is not DISGUSTING. I think maybe the meaning is AFFECTED and Ben use this wrong word 肉麻 in the title of Movie Review: “300″ 真他妈的肉麻！)
My girlfriend is a foreign trade sales. When she writes to her customers, she calls them DEAR MIKE, DEAR RICHARD, DEAR… I think only I can be called DEAR by her. How dear she call another male DEAR!
Benjamin Ross
said,
April 17, 2007 at 12:59 pm
肉麻 in English means “cheesy.” It’s one of my favorite Chinese words. I use it at least 2 or 3 times a day.
ken
said,
April 17, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Here’s an interesting politeness point:
When you sneeze in an English speaking place, someone near you will say “God bless you,” or maybe “Gezuntite” (a word often heard and almost never spelled, as you can see I’ve spelled it wrong).
Ask a Chinese friend why no one has anything to say when someone sneezes. See what kinds of answers you get.
Swedes will say “Pruset” and so far no Swede has been able to explain to me what the heck pruset means. Its just the word you say when someone blows a big sneeze into their handkerchief.
But in China, no one says anything at all. Why is this? I have my ideas. But what have you heard?
Now, Ben, can you please tell all of us what you are smoking in that photograph on the ABOUT page?
chriswaugh_bj
said,
April 17, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Gesundheit ist ein deutsches Wort. Gesundheit, from German, used in American English, less in other dialects, literally means ‘health’. I guess it’s more common in American because of the much larger number of German immigrants you guys got back in the 19th century.
“肉麻 in English means “cheesy.””? I had to check that in the dictionary, never having learned it before, and the meaning was “nauseating, sickening, disgusting”. What happened to make it “affected” or “cheesy”? Interesting…
On topic, though, I resolve the cultural gap by quickly muttering “xie a” or something like that. Never got out of the habit of saying “xiexie” to taxi drivers or waitresses, though. Don’t know why, I could just never make it feel right ignoring them. My mother trained me too well? hmmm…. Anyway, it may be a little odd, but it certainly doesn’t do any harm and it always seems appreciated.
Danielle
said,
April 17, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Ken, it’s not “Gezuntite” but “Gesundheit”, which means “good health”. (Well i had better translate it as “healthy”, but this word is a noun, not an adjective.) It’s a german word. In german a single “s” is pronunced like “z”, and “d” at the end of a word is pronunced like “t”. “h” here is silent.
Back to the topic. Why don’t we Chinese say this? Because we are a “veiled” nation. We are not used to expressing our feelings to everybody 800 times a day.
Danielle
said,
April 17, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Forgot to say, the root word of “Gesundheit” is “gesund”, that’s why i said that “d” was in the end…
Benjamin Ross
said,
April 17, 2007 at 11:57 pm
“Cheesy” is just one of those words which is not part of the Chinese lexicon of “official English.” So the dictionary translation of 肉麻 really is not that accurate. It is definitely the closest word there is in Chinese to “cheesy,” which can be a very useful word in China. Try it out.
Matt Schiavenza
said,
April 18, 2007 at 10:06 am
I remember a European friend visited me in California and was surprised that we rarely say “Please” but will say “thank you”, sometimes often. To use your example, we say:
“Can you pass me the potatoes” rather than
“Please pass me the potatoes”
In other languages, the “please” is just as obligatory as “thank you”. I suspect this was the case in English as well until fairly recently, and could very well be standard in other Anglophone countries.
ken
said,
April 18, 2007 at 11:45 am
Okay, now I can spell Gesundheit (if I peek at someone’s text that has it right). Thanks!
But: my Chinese friend said that people don’t say anything when someone sneezes because “it is their personal business, and saying something signals that you have noticed that they are not quite well, and such a signal may cause them to loose a little face.” It was the (late) pop singer, Gao Feng, who explained it that way to me, after dinner at his parent’s house in WuHan.
Does that make any sense?
I agree that China is in some ways veiled (at least untill you are within the gate, inside the house, and within the willingly unveiled eysight and earshot of the household). But I don’t think that saying “Gesundheit” expresses a feeling at all.
It is a kind of phatic communication, a ritual act, one that communicates only that one is communicating within that specific sneeze-context as one is “supposed” to do (in the cultures in which such a speech-act takes place).
One can ask why Americans or Germans do it, and the answer is surely not “to show their feelings.” It is to ‘be polite’. Yet in China, to mention someone’s sneezing is, perhaps, impolite.
There are deeper streams beneath all this, I’m sure. Fun discussion, guys!
Benjamin Ross
said,
April 18, 2007 at 12:08 pm
I had always heard that us white folk saying “God Bless You” or as we say it nowadays “Gableshoo” comes from the time of the Black Plague in Europe. When people were heard sneezing, others would say “God Bless You” out of fear that they had the plague. However, this story could have come from the same people who concocted Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy. Anybody know for sure?
James Chiang
said,
April 18, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Maybe 肉麻 in English means “cheesy.”But I meant using 肉麻 to describe the movie 300 is not proper.
chriswaugh_bj
said,
April 18, 2007 at 12:54 pm
I won’t comment on whether 300 should be called 肉麻 or not. It was just an interesting new word for me, especially considering how I learnt it.
Ben, I believe saying “God Bless You” or “Gableshoo” or “Bleshoo” (Kiwi equivalent) does originally come from some superstition about sneezing and illness. Not sure of the exact origin, though.
Ken, you’re right, it is more about what is considered polite, and is really more ritual than anything else. Certainly has nothing to do with some cultures being “veiled” and others being “open”.
Danielle
said,
April 18, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Ken i totally agree with you about the “politeness” and “impoliteness”. Well, but i guess i am an exception in that case. I mean, when i say “Gesundheit” to others who sneeze, i do show my feelings. I do wisper quietly in my heart that i wish them “good health”……
Jeremy Bollman
said,
May 22, 2007 at 1:24 am
I always heard that blessing someone when they sneeze comes from people thinking a demon was exiting their body, therefore are in need of a blessing. Which is probably a crock, but that is what I grew up thinking. When I was in Japan wondering about this cultural difference my Japanese friends told me that it was a little embarrassing to sneeze in public; so why would you draw attention to it by saying something in response?
Gustaf Hansen
said,
May 22, 2007 at 3:16 pm
ken: In Swedish it’s written as “prosit” and the meaning would translate something like “may it benefit you”. It comes from the latin word “prosit” which also would have a similar meaning. Why we Swedes would use the word comes from the same superstition as Jeremy Bollman described in his comment, a bad demon is exiting your body.
On a side note: the Germans use this same word when drinking to say “cheers” (their pronunciation/spelling is “prost”).
Heilong
said,
May 24, 2007 at 8:21 am
I done a brief study on superstitions of Europe and what I had read about the God Bless You thing was that When a person sneezes was the only time when a Demon could enter your body trough your nose. Saying God Bless You could prevent this from happening.
On a side note, I think its awful that America is changing anything with religious context for example: the Easter Bunny is now called the Holiday Bunny, A curse word is now referred to as a Cuse word and its just a matter of time before they rename Christmas. What’s up these festivals are losing their meanings.
Alan
said,
May 25, 2007 at 2:41 am
What you have observed is a Mainland Chinese thing. It might also be a Fuzhou or Southern Chinese thing. I am originally from Fuzhou, but it has been so long ago when I lived there. The only thing makes me Fuzhou now is that my parents and siblings still live there. I understand that Mainland Chinese in general don’t use “please” and “thank you” much. However, Taiwan Chinese are just like Americans when coming to “please” and “thank you.” They also over-use “sorry.” Many American friends have said to me that they don’t understand why Chinese (mainly Taiwanese) would say sorry when it’s not even their fault. I think they may have confused the meaning of sorry as in apologizing to the sorry as in feeling bad. e.g., I am so sorry your girlfriend stood you up last night. Because of this drastic cultural difference, many Mainland Chinese folks in America have been misunderstood as abrasive or rude. Fuzhou-ren is generally polite and more humble than northerners.