05.28.07
Cohabitation Nation
My freshman year in college I shared a dorm room with an old friend of mine from Hebrew school, Derek Gale. We had known each other since we had been old enough to walk, but had never spent much time in the same social circle. Our mutual friends all thought we would end up killing each other on account of Derek being extremely neat and tidy, and me falling more towards the messy end of the spectrum. However, we both agreed it would be better to live together rather than sharing freshman year with a random roommate. Through some miracle, we got along great, and today Derek is one of my best friends. Many of the other residents on our floor were not as lucky.
Across the hall from us was another room shared by two girls (let’s call them Jenni and Anne). For the first two weeks, all four of us got along well. The girls would come to our room for movies or microwave nachos, and we would often spend evenings chatting or making late-night runs to the 24 hour Taco Bell drive thru. As the semester wore on, Derek and I began to see the girls together less and less. One evening we heard yelling and screaming across the hall. The next morning on my way back from the bathroom, I saw Anne just outside her door. She looked flustered.
“What was going on last night?” I asked.
“Jenni got pissed off because I told her that I did not like all the posters of naked muscle men that she puts up in the room. I don’t want my friends to come over and have to look at naked guys all the time,” she told me.
Later that night I was having dinner in the cafeteria with Derek when Jenni sat down next to us. She was noticeably agitated as well.
“I have told Anne so many times not to smoke in our room. I’m allergic to smoke. Sometimes she can be such a dumb b****.”
“We do live on a smoking floor you know,” Derek mentioned.
“Yeah, but the first day, we made a deal that nobody would smoke in the room. And it’s not just that. I usually go to bed at 10 o’clock and she plays her music until midnight. I don’t think I can live like this anymore.”
Over the next few months, the situation worsened, with Derek and me finding ourselves trapped in the middle. When only one of them was around, they would constantly complain to us about the other. As finals drew near, the complaints about living habits gradually became replaced by metaphorical references to various barnyard animals. Derek and I did our best to stay out of the carnage.
At the beginning of the second semester Jenni moved out, opting to pay the extra fee for the single room. Anne was left with a single as well. To my knowledge, they never spoke again.
My Chinese co-workers find themselves in a similar situation—cohabitating with others who were not of their own choosing. The barber shop offers free housing for all employees, consisting of a three bedroom unfinished apartment, which we call the “dormitory.” The floors are cement and the walls are covered by scratched white paint. Each bedroom is packed in with 3 bunk beds without mattresses, and the living room functions primarily as a dining room, with a circular table and 10 chairs taking up most of the space. There is only one bathroom. 7 little brothers, the 2 managers, and one of the masters currently live in the dormitory. (Due to their higher incomes, the other 4 masters have opted to pay for their own accommodations, and 2 little sisters and 1 little brother live with family members).
Knowing what I do about Americans (this probably applies to most other Westerners as well) I do not think I would be out of line in asserting that these living conditions would not fly in the US. Forcing 10 non-related Americans to share a 3-bedroom, 1-bathroom apartment, would not work. We are just not capable of such intimate living. We would kill each other.
My 18 coworkers all spend between 50 and 70 (the 50 accounts for the shift differences) hours per week working side-by-side with the same people. Imagine working those hours, with the same people, but then also living together, and eating all of your meals together as well, all in the same 3-bedroom apartment with one bathroom.
When I first heard about this arrangement, I assumed that this environment would inevitably breed conflict, as personal problems are difficult to dissipate when you are with the same people literally 24 hours a day. Ironically, other than Johnny getting on other people nerves, I have seen virtually no conflict at all between the staff. Everybody either likes one another, or if differences do exist, they have been reconciled to the point that they do not interfere with the work day. Part of me is saying that it is impossible for there to be no major conflict, and it’s more likely that the conflict just hasn’t been exposed to me, but at the same time, I have been spending eleven hours a day with this group of people, and it is hard to imagine that if problems existed, they could be completely masked for so long.
So why is it that young Chinese people can live so seamlessly with 10 people cramped into one apartment, when Americans of the same age often find it so difficult to share their dorm room with one other person, not to mention share a single bathroom with 10 others?
Surely economics play some role. Every employee in the barber shop (Mr. Zheng included) comes from a rural area. They all grew up in predominantly poor families, in which their economic situation limited them to living in close quarters with other family members. Most of them probably grew up sharing their bedroom (and possibly their bed too) with a sibling or two as well as a grandparent. My guess is that if you were to take 10 eighteen-year-olds from wealthy Shanghai families and put them in a 3-bedroom apartment together, the results would not be nearly as pretty.
However…I would still wager that the 10 Shanghai kids would fare much better off than 10 American kids placed into similar living conditions.
Chinese people often talk of the dichotomy between 集体主义 (collectivism) and 个人主义 (individualism) when discussing differences between “us” and “them.” The conventional wisdom is that while Westerners tend to look out for themselves, the Chinese think more with the group in mind. While this paradigm has the tendency to breed over-generalizations, in many instances it is quite applicable. The overwhelming sense of belonging to a group is often more valued in China than it is in the West where we tend to view group membership as another obligation which impedes our individualist pursuits. In the case of Anne and Jennie, their respective opposing desires to smoke and decorate their dorm room with pictures of naked men were ultimately more important to them than was maintaining the cohesion of the group. My guess is had a situation arisen like this in our dormitory, both parties would have backed down from the conflict, seeing the threat to group stability as a greater loss than their own personal pursuits. Then again, some nude photos of Brad Pitt and Nicholas Cage could really do wonders to spice up those ugly white walls.
Oskar Matzerath
said,
May 28, 2007 at 5:17 pm
It’s all about necessity. People in the place we like to call the west used to live like Chinese people do today. During Europe’s industrial revolution large families inhabited very small spaces together; it’s not surprising that China is the same now. Sure having got used to a life surrounded by others many Chinese might feel lonely if presented with their own room, but despite the so-called “collective” culture, that’s the way the country is moving.
Interestingly, when I ask Chinese people about the differences between China and Japan, the “collectivist” “individualist” dichotomy goes into reverse and Chinese people become the individualists who can’t stick together.
“一个日本人是一条虫，十个日本人是一条龙。一个中国人是一条龙，十个中国人是十条虫。”
Maria
said,
May 28, 2007 at 8:36 pm
For a year, I lived in a Beijing apartment by myself. I was very happy with the arrangement, as I valued the privacy and had lived alone for many years before coming to China. My Chinese coworkers, on the other hand, all felt sorry for me, automatically assuming I lived on my own because I had no friends or relatives in the city when I moved there. After a few months, two of my coworkers even suggested that I move in with them, so that I wouldn’t be so lonely. When I politely declined, they started to come up with names of people they knew who could move in with me. It was difficult to explain my choice of living arrangements, as my apartment was both bigger than the ones they usually shared with two or more friends, more expensive and farther away from work. Thankyou for an excellent blog.
Rene
said,
May 28, 2007 at 8:53 pm
In my experience teaching Chinese college students who often live 8 to a room, I notice a heck of a lot of conflict so I’m not sure the differences are quite so great. One potential difference is the lack of recourse to change things. Generally, if you don’t like someone, tough. If you’re rich enough (which are very few students), you can rent an apartment off campus, but even to do that, you need permission from school officials. Ultimately, I think this develops the ability to suffer in silence.
Matt Schiavenza
said,
May 28, 2007 at 10:16 pm
I remember in college that many of the male roommate partnerships worked out well, while the female ones tended not to. What this says about the genders I don’t know
zuraffo
said,
May 28, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Rene’s comment reflect a certain tendency for westerners to view any positive virtue of a different culture in a negative light. In this case, the ability to put group before self an ability to “suffer in silence”. Did it not occur to Rene that perhaps cultural norms play a part?
In Chinese traditional values, it is considered good upbringing to be considerate and courteous, so that one is able to live within a group of people in harmony. It is considered a virtue to respect the established structure and authority. Any action that risk upsetting the peace of any given establishment is considered barbaric and selfish (and If I may say so, rightfully).
Is that a good thing or a bad thing? It is hard to judge. On one hand, it does lead to the tendency of chinese suffering in silence when they cannot discern a bully from a benigh authority. On the other hand, it makes China, as a nation, less likely to go around the globe and mess with other’s internal policy and incite “regime change” all for the name of “”.
So, yes, conflicts do exist in any given community. And because traditional chinese value emphasize on being considerate to other people, these conflicts tend to be played down and resolved rather than dramatized. If one considered such ability a “suffer”, it only reflects on one’s upbringing.
As for the guy versus girl thing, without sounding like a utterly disgusting sexist, I can only say that in a work environment, it is generally easier to sort out personal differences for the common good of the company between guys than it is between girls, with a few notable exceptions (those being the successful ones).
Lastly, as for the posters, Brad Pitt is fine, but Nicholas Cage? Seriously.
dezza
said,
May 29, 2007 at 7:28 am
i was nodding in agreement with what you wrote up until the last paragraph.
While on paper, western culture is more of an individualistic society and Chinese culture is more collectivist, from my experience, this can’t be further from the truth.
If anyone has seen the crowds that surround an accident victim and do nothing but stare at the poor soul without doing a thing, or how many Chinese will use/step on others to reach their monetary goals (fake baby formula or fake medicine anyone?) will know that Chinese saying they are collectivist really rings hollow. The truth is most Chinese look out for themselves and their families first and to hell with anyone else. It has to be this way because of overpopulation which leads to intense competition in all aspects of life: education, employment, etc..
Maybe I’m being a bit harsh and of course not all Chinese are this way but I’ve seen it a lot throughout my experiences with Chinese people.
Yu
said,
May 29, 2007 at 8:30 am
This touches on something I have been thinking about lately.
This whole individualism collectivism dichotomy. Your post made me think of you another aspect of this situation.
I start to wonder if when Chinese people spend time with their in-group they put on their best behavior and do the things they should do to keep others happy whearas in the US, we put on pur best behavior for the people who look at us as outsiders to create a more harmonious external environment. So the difference being that Chinese need to act their best to the people they care most about and when they go out in the general public and encounter people they do not know that they behave as they wish. I.e. the queueing, spitting, and general lack of concern for strangers. While, I would say, in the US, we should put on on good manners when we meet people who are strangers, and we should try to help strangers. I always remember when going out in public my mom always expected me to be on good behaviour and when our school had field trips, we were also reminded to be on our best behaviour. But at home I can be as miserable as I want to and I should be able to be myself and not have to bear or hide anything I don’t like. This leads to more conflicts inside a house because you are allowed to be on your worst behavior and the people closest to you are expected to toloroate and even love you for it. But there can be arguements withing close people.
So what I am saying, I guess, is that in the US, going out in public we are met with others who treat us the way they would want to be treated, we are supposed to help those who need it, and in general I feel Americans are quite friendly with strangers. In public, we are expected to put on a good face. Therefore, I think in the US, the public soceity is or seems more friendly than China. BUT if in China, the idea is that you always use your best manners when you are in contact with the people closest to you that you would find more harmony inside the in group, and the outside would have less harmony.
Jen
said,
May 29, 2007 at 8:49 am
I just wanted to drop a line to say that I stumbled on your blog while googling random people from BBYO here in Kansas City (I worked with Jennifer Davis on a film; got me all nostalgic). I’m finding it fascinating.
Also, my freshman and sophomore years were spent in random roommate hell because I knew no one in Massachusetts. My roommate sophomore year had forgotten to file her forms to change housing for second semester, and after the housing freeze (a bi-annual two weeks where no one is allowed to visit the housing office), she finally moved out and I ran down to Housing Services with $250 to claim the room as my own.
My senior year, I lived in an apartment with a Chinese guy who . . . well, the polite thing to say would be that he was a pig. Definitely not saying it’s because of where he comes from, mind. However, after reading this particular entry, I am reminded that he did have a bit of a “save the group” mentality, in that we would fight (occasionally getting into some really messed up screaming matches), usually about something that he did (this guy would leave spills on the floor, counters, wherever; blamed me for the apartment getting broken into even though I wasn’t the one who left doors unlocked, somehow made it my fault that he couldn’t pay his part of the rent on time), but every time, he would either suck it up and apologize, or actually realize what an irrational bastard he was being and we would talk it out.
It is to say, despite the ridiculous screaming matches about how we didn’t have an ant problem before I went back to Kansas for a week, etc., we survived pretty damn well. Can’t say as we’re still friends, but we survived.
Jeremy
said,
May 29, 2007 at 9:31 am
Yu,
Great observation.
Whenever I spend time with my girlfriend’s family, there is a pressure to be extremely polite and a great host. In the US, there is such pressure but it is not nearly as strong.
The pressure in the US for some (myself included) is to maintain ‘faceless face’ – be nice to strangers, don’t make a scene in public, etc. Whereas in China, sometimes it doesn’t seem to matter how one treats strangers.
Ben, I am sure most expats who have lived here in China are aware to one degree or another of the things you talk about on this blog. However, you have begun to flesh them out in a way that isn’t too common.
Morten
said,
May 29, 2007 at 10:27 am
I think that you are right Yu. What you describe about harmony in a group is pretty much what is ment by the individualism collectivism dichotomy.
I have read an interesting article about the Chinese concept of conflict (mao-dun).
It states that to Chinese people it is more important to keep stay out of trouble with the people with whom you have close relations. They don’t want loose face or disturb the guanxi-relations.
The article is called “The Chinese “Native” Perspective on Mao-dun and Mao-dun Resolution Strategies”. I found it on http://www.trinity.edu/org/ics/ICS%20Issues/ICS%20VII/ICS-VII-1-Yu.pdf
About the posters in the dormitory. Everybody living there are boys, right? Don’t you think they should have a poster with naked Angelina instead of naked Brad : )
Alan
said,
May 29, 2007 at 10:54 am
Both sides (i.e. those who disagree or agree with Ben’s assertion) have a point. My take is that as a Chinese living in America, I have found Chinese people tend to look at things with a group mentality. We Chinese should do things this way. They Americans are always like that. Our Chinese kids are this. They American kids are that. Chinese in America, be they Taiwan Chinese, Mainland Chinese, Malaysian Chinese, or Hong Kong Chinese, tend to impose their experience living in America on other fellow Chinese. When Eric Liu shared his thoughts growing up in America in his book “Accidental Asian”, he got a lot of disapproval and attacks from fellow Chinese immigrants and even American-born Chinese. Chinese need to learn to be an individualistic people. Ironically, the American Libertarian Party owes a lot to ancient Chinese philosopher, Zhuang Zi, for its party philosophy (i.e., personal responsibility and individualism). But China is alien to Zhuang Zi and Taoism. Sinologists imported Zhuang and Taoist to the West and came up with Transcdentalism by Thoreau and Emerson in America, which Libertarian Party borrowed a lot of its philosophy from. It’s time that Chinese re-import back individualism. It’s great to have your own thoughts.
Benjamin Ross
said,
May 29, 2007 at 11:30 am
Yu makes a very good point. I have always broken it down like this. Chinese people treat their guests and people in their social networks, very, very well. I have often seen Chinese people do things for friends and family members, that I would never expect out of Westerners. However, they treat strangers very poorly (see Dezza’s examples). It is almost as if everybody has a guanxi rank in terms of how much help they will get from another individual. As Dezza mentioned, Chinese people will often watch a dying stranger in the road without helping, but that same Chinese person would probably travel halfway across the country to aide a sick relative, even if it wasn’t life threatening. Westerners tend to treat others more or less the same, regardless of where they rank on the guanxi totem pole. As foreigners, we often get a jaded sense of this because whether we like it or not, we always fit into the guest role in China. As a guest, we ae automatically somebody who should be respected and treated well in the eyes of most Chinese, so we rarely experience this stranger treatment as we would if we were a locals.
Kris
said,
May 29, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Ben, isn’t what you are describing a product of the Confucian mindset?
It is my basic understanding that there is this concept of circles of relationships. The closer/tighter the circle that someone is in, the more respect they are owed. And on the flipside, the farther removed you are from someone, the less you owe them. Which is why the Chinese, at first glance from the Western perspective, seem to have a loose morality when it comes to the concepts of telling the truth, or cheating someone out of money. But the reality is that they apply different degrees of right and wrong based on how far removed the other person is.
In the Western world, heavily influenced by the Judaeo-Christian beliefs, morality is more of constant. It is wrong to lie or steal or cheat someone, end of story. Of course we still look more harshly on someone who does those things to their own family, but to be a good person you are expected to apply the rules equally to everyone.
This was my observation after conversations with my wife, who is Chinese, and our friends, and my experiences in central and eastern China. And I am certainly not implying the Chinese/Confucianist way of thinking is wrong or immoral, just noting the differences as I see them.
canrun
said,
May 29, 2007 at 3:53 pm
“So why is it that young Chinese people can live so seamlessly with 10 people cramped into one apartment, when Americans of the same age often find it so difficult to share their dorm room with one other person, not to mention share a single bathroom with 10 others?”
Because we’re spoiled, soft, fat, dumb and happy. The bread and circuses had indeed achieved their goals…
Oh, and there’s that thing about not giving a shit what 孔子 said, too…
canrun
said,
May 29, 2007 at 3:59 pm
“In Chinese traditional values, it is considered good upbringing to be considerate and courteous”
You fail to mention that China pretty much tossed said values out the window in 1966.
Stephen Xu
said,
May 29, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Interesting article!
I believe that you have observed the cultural difference between China and US carefully, and this article provides some original ideas.
As to the phenomenon you have seen, I would rather say that it is an issue of “tradition”—-maybe Americans see it totally different from Chinese. “Tradition” is something that every Chinese have to follow. From ancient ages to modern world, every Chinese live along with many literal social rules. For somebody who disobeys the rules, he will soon become a dead man, drowned in the floods of others’ saliva. Get it? As a group, most Chinese don’t care whether something is right or wrong, either true or false, the only thing they care is to make sure that they obey the tradition, stand for the majority. By doing that, they are safer, more respected, and given more chances of living a better life.
Another thing is “compromise”. Back to the example of roommate’s relation, for a Chinese whose life style is disturbed by someone else, the common way he deal with it is let it be, or remind the rude guy tactfully, or else he will be tagged “a narrow-minded man”, “a strange man”, and so on. And the most common result is a good man has to grin and bear it.
In short, there is no virtue, if anything, it is you have to obey the unreasonable rules (no matter it is right or wrong), and follow the majority. In China, only the power can talk for you. You cannot think out of the box, much less breaking traditional rules. The guys who have done so eventually are done, and there is no exception.
Alan
said,
May 29, 2007 at 10:21 pm
I agree with canrun’s statement that “China pretty much tossed said values out the window in 1966.” The Communist government took over power in China in 1949. Mao even changed the Chinese language to a simplified version of characters, altered meanings of some existing vocabularies and introduced lots of new vocabularies that were designed to get rid of any traditional Chinese cultural values. (Pretty much like what Democrats are doing in America today. For example, ‘getting rid of tax cut’ has replaced ‘tax increase.’) It’s a bit far-fetched in some cases to talk about Chinese culture today in China without mentioning communism.
Ben, I think you should make a list of cultural differences between China and America, which you have witnessed or experienced. let your readers add to your list. I guarantee you the list would be very funny.
China Law Blog
said,
May 29, 2007 at 11:19 pm
I see a Ph.d thesis here.
Benjamin Ross
said,
May 29, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Kris says
Yes, definitely. Confucianism still has an enormous effect on Chinese society, and I think the way you described it is right on the money. As you say, what is “moral” is partially defined by the relationship to the individual in question, wheras in the west it is more or less “constant.” Neither system is inherently better or worse, just different. The problem is when the two systems clash, and their is mutual misunderstanding between both sides. Wish I could say I had written your comment myself.
GuanziSaid
said,
May 30, 2007 at 4:34 am
Ben,
As to how Chinese treat other people, I think you left out a very important factor, and that is the economic factor.
I have been living in America for more than 15 years. Just like many foreigners who visited China, I get “Culture shocks” every time I go back to Beijing (my hometown). If you read blogs of expats living in China, you will find complaints about staring, spitting and line-jumping etc. Though I don’t think Westerners are morally/ethically any better than the Chinese, I have to say that they have better manners in general. I think this is because Westerners are more civilized materially, rather than the culture differences.
Kuan-tzu (管仲 or 管子) said 2600 years ago: “衣食足而知荣辱” (or “衣食足方知礼节”). It basically means people will have shame (or civility) only when they have enough food and clothing. It’s pretty simple — If everybody can afford a bike, there will be less people stealing it. If you are brought up in a carpeted/air-conditioned house by well-educated parents, you are less likely to spit when you are out on the street.
The European Jesuits centuries ago told people that China is a country of “rule of manners.” We Chinese call our country “礼仪之邦.” But I think we have lost that title due to a century of economic stagnation and man-made disasters, it’s going to take a couple of generations to build the country up and get rid of the bad habits. It will be really interesting if you can come back in 30 years and tell us how people have changed.
Love your blog. Keep up the good work!
Benjamin Ross
said,
May 30, 2007 at 9:59 am
Guanzi said-
I have often wondered myself if what we think of as “bad manners” is caused by a economic factors. I am curious however, are these “bad behaviors” such as spitting and cutting line present in other developing areas? (India? Africa? SE Asia?) If they are caused by economic factors, then wouldn’t they exist in other developing countries as well? Anybody have any personal experience?
Alan
said,
May 30, 2007 at 10:49 am
GuanziSaid has raised a very interesting point. He even has a famed ancient Chinese philosopher to back up his claim. I am not sure if I would agree to the Kuan-tzu (管仲 or 管子) statement, although I understand it seemed to make a lot of sense with Chinese people over the centuries. Indeed, it did seem to make sense. Just look at Taiwan or Hong Kong Chinese. They are definitely more westernized (pardon me, civilized if no one objects) when coming to stuff, such as cutting lines, spitting, and even showing respect and care to strangers. You wouldn’t see pedestrians in Taipei doing nothing when witnessing an old lady getting hurt on the street.
My family vacationed in the Caribbean at least once a year where we have met a lot of local folks, Latinos, and Brits. All these 3 groups of people cut lines. The first time when I saw Brits cut line at a buffet restaurant, I was a bit surprised and thought maybe they were in a hurry. Then I read in several online reviews on Caribbean resorts where Americans complained about Brits cutting lines. Maybe some Brits could do some explaination here. I have a good guess why they would cut lines in Caribbeans. I bet they wouldn’t do it back home. Also, local Caribbeans and Latinos cut lines. If you want to know whether they do it as a habit, just look at their kids. I have never seen any Caribbean or Latino spit, although they aren’t any better off economically than a lot of Chinese today.
Ben, I have to disagree with you on your assumption that Confuciuism has still had an influence on today’s Mainland Chinese. Maybe you have read it somewhere. Just ask a local Chinese college student (who doesn’t major in History or Chinese or Philosophy) to tell you some basic teachings of Confucius. I doubt they would be able to tell you any. Please try it and report back here. I am very curious. I grew up in China in the 70’s and 80’s and I have no clue what basic Confucius teachings were until I came to America and read it in English. All I was told about Confucius while in China was that it was bad and feudal (whatever that means).
Your blogs are very interesting. I hope we can get more Chinese to read them and challenge some of your observations so that we could get a better understanding of both cultures. I am Chinese from China but for many years I lived in my American “parents.” I have got an unusual understanding of both cultures and their differences. I am in my early 40’s now. I hope other Chinese can understand me with what I am going to say. I think Chinese culture has a lot of problems. I agree with most everything that Professor Bo Yang (Bo is the surname) has to say in his book “The Ugly Chinese.” Bo was a professor from Taiwan. I think his speciality is Zhuang Zi. You should read that book and ask a Chinese friend to read it and translate it for you if you don’t understand the Chinese language. There are a couple things in Chinese culture that I think are way better than American culture. One of them is delayed gratification (Chinese saying is: eat bitter fruit first and then sweet fruit. It means hard work before enjoy life; hence, delayed gratification.) Another thing of Chinese culture is the sincerity and closeness in a friendship. Americans are much more ego-centric in general.
Peter
said,
May 30, 2007 at 11:47 am
I think that the ability of many Chinese to co-habit is a result of the following factors:
1. Experience: Certainly most will have experienced this at home and also (if from the countryside) at school. I’m sure any westerner here has experienced the cultural differences in relation to personal space here, so I feel that the problems we would have with this arrangement wouldn’t be seen as problems for many chinese.
2. Pragmatism: Scratch the surface (or gain a chinese confident) in any group of chinese workers and you will see the same inter-personal issues as a group of western co-workers. However these things are kepot below the surface because the most everyone has their eye on the most important goal..keeping the job and the money status and city dwelling that it brings.
I would be interested, and I don’t think you have touched on this directly, as to how working class chinese such as these view both foreigners and the local economic elite.
cheers
zuraffo
said,
May 30, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Confucianism is a pretty resilient philosophy. If you have some knowledge of China’s history, you would know that Cultural Revolution wasn’t the first time Confucianism came under attack. The First Emperor of China (Qin ShiHuang) Pretty much launch a campaign to kill Confucian Scholars and burn their scriptures (Historically known as 焚书坑儒). Yet, the confucian tradition continues till today.
Before anyone claims that confucianism or any of the good traditions was thrown out of China by Mao Zedong, think again.
China has a very complex society, and in a complex society, one does not “throw out” ideologies or traditions like one would a physical object. Mao was an idealist, but instead of revolutionalize the Chinese society, he merely introduce another thread to a tightly knitted web.
Handan
said,
May 30, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Zuraffo:
In response to the second paragraph of your comment, I’d say that all the “harmony” and “peace” is kept only at the surface level. Scratch it and you often get deep grievances and a lot of bitching in the back of one another.
I have two examples. My mom’s only brother used to live in close quarters with my maternal grandparents six years into his marriage, along with the wife and a son. Since I spent my first 8 years of my life in that old house, I very much consider is home and goes there a lot. Up till a few years after my uncle’s family had moved to an independent apt, I thought my aunt-in-law’s relationship with my grandma was good. Then one day, I was telling my mom about this observation of mine and she asked, “you actually think so?” After some hesitation, deciding that I was old enough to be told this, mom revealed the rocky side of the relationship that easily escaped my teenage eyes.
Almost exactly the same episode played itself to me on the relationships among the dozen households in my own apt building. Like I thought it was a peaceful neighbourhood until we moved out and my mom told me what a big relief it is to finally be out of that place. Stories illustrating the undercurrents in the seemingly nice and easy neighbourhood were made known to me for the first time.
I’ve since learned that peace and harmony kept by courteous daily interations by no means equal to the freedom from relationship problems
Whenever necessary, keeping the surface harmony and peace despite loathing each other is an art that, I’d venture, the Chinese people have mastered better than most other nations. Yet all the wounds in social relationships, nicely band-aided up but never opened up for a thorough cure, leave people with less inner peace and psycho health. Not coincidently, Chinese people are also masters of playing tricks on others in a way that you can not put your finger on anything and make a valid accusation. “The Dream of the Red Chamber” would offer a good look into this dark side of Chinese social relationships.
When you don’t like something about your roommate, you don’t like it. Whether you choose to hide your dislike and put up an effort to get along or not doesn’t change the fact that you don’t like it. You’ll more likely choose to keep the surface harmony when there’s no real alternative and you’re wise enough to see it. Given the freedom to opt out, you’d care less about keeping the surface harmony. This freedom, I admit, grows along with money in most cases.
zuraffo
said,
May 30, 2007 at 6:10 pm
As for the simplification of Chinese Character, I think people can take a little more effort to education themselves on this topic. On contrary to common myth that Mao was the great mastermind behind the “destruction” of chinese characters, it actually predates the Communist Era, and one can even trace its roots back to the imperialist era.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_Chinese
I am surprised many westerners still believed the slander and lies that US media pile on Mao during the MacCarthy Era. No. Really. I have always thought western propaganda works way better than anything the communists can come up with.
zuraffo
said,
May 30, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Handan,
Thank you for your elaboration. My exertion by no mean contradict yours. In fact, I am quite familiar with all the undercurrent, backstab double-dealing in a typical chinese situation.
What is important is that the undercurrent feelings do not become concrete problems, and they do not spill over to the surrounding people and the society at large. And in a country with too many people and too little resource, the ability for individual to stomach these negative feelings and preserve the harmonious front is important.
This is where confucianism comes in. It bascially teaches you how to be self-reflective and be tolerant of exterior circumstances. To be sure, not everyone will be able to achieve inner peace with it, but what’s more important is everyone attempt to. (If one can’t stomach the rigid structure of confucianism, there’s always the nihilism of Taoism.)
And even with the unsaid resentment and “repressive” tolerance, I would wager individuals still benefit a lot from a community environment. There is no lack of company, and people can easily get help from each other. One also has more chance to have genuine connection to a real, human community (instead of the fake one on the internet nowadays). And after all, learning to function and behave in a group environment can’t be a bad thing: we human are group animals first and foremost.
On a sidenote: here is another article on simplified chinese, but this one is in mandarin and is much more technical. I don’t seem to come across any English translation:
http://fhpi.yingkou.net.cn/bbs/1951/messages/10310.html
Rene
said,
May 30, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Re: comments of Zuraffo.
I appreciate your efforts to bring a balanced stance to this topic, but I think your response of “Silly Westerners” (more or less) to my comment and those of others was not entirely warranted. Where do I imply that group cohesion is a negative quality? I am merely saying that I’m not sure that this cohesion (if it exists) always comes from an altruistic position.
Let me reiterate. I was talking from experience. From real conversations that I have had with students that I teach. Lots of them. Students who have had fights with their roommates. Students who have asked school officials to move out only to be denied, so they continue to 吃苦. Students who have in fact moved out if (once again) they have the money to do so. So yes I did consider cultural factors, but they seemed not to completely explain the situation, which is what I thought I was saying in my previous post. If that was not clear, I apologize.
In short, the situation is not as simple as “China is a Confucian society.” While I agree with your interpretation of Confucianism as you presented in your response to Handan, it is after all just a philosophy. Whether or not everyone in a given society follows a given philosophy is open to some debate, which is what we are doing here. I hope that we can all agree that Chinese society is changing, and that with these changes, so also does adherence to traditional values change. I would think that recent trends of social unrest in the countryside would indicate this if nothing else. Confucianism may be ideal in some ways, but it is not a panacea.
GuanziSaid
said,
May 30, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Alan,
You live in America, I am sure you know the fact that whenever there is an economic downtime in a city, the crime rate goes up there. So Kuan-tzu’s theory does make a lot of sense.
I didn’t say people from the West are more civilized MORALLY, I said they are more civilized MATERIALLY. Let’s just take New Orleans for example. After hurricane Katrina, so many “civilized” people became robbers and murderers when they suddenly lost everything, there were people shooting people in the backs, it was hell on earth. Yet you don’t see similar situation in South-East Asian countries after they were hit by the recent tsunami. I read an article recently (sorry, I forgot which newspaper), a Bangladeshi told the reporter after he learnt what happened in New Orleans: “I wonder who is more civilized, the American or us?”
GuanziSaid
said,
May 30, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Ben,
I agree with you that the cultural fator plays an important role on people’s behaviour. But you have to consider the economic factor as well, it’s equally important. You can’t separate the two. Think culture is the inner factor, environment (economics) is the outer factor…
zuraffo
said,
May 31, 2007 at 9:40 am
Rene,
First of all, it’s nothing personal. I totally understand why you feel “not warranted” to my comment.
what really irritates me it’s the prevalent negative slant to a lot (I mean more than 80%) of comment on a chinese situation.
For instance, in your particular example, I happened to think it’s a good thing for students that they are learning how to resolve conflict in a group in their school. One cannot wilfully buy out of tight situation in life everytime and to start learning to compromise early in life is good; a little hardship goes a long way. This is PART of the education process.
BUT, if given any (most) westerner the situation, 80% of them will come to the same conclusion as you: suffer in silence.
I have come to a conclusion that westerners are not doing it intentionally. Most of the time it’s just subconcious, and it IS natural to them. But in a sense, that makes it worse.
Another instance that can be observed in this thread is the cultural revolution thingy. Many people commenting on it probably heard one or two horror stories on it without really trying to find out what it is. Then you get things like “Mao throw out traditional writing” which comes out completely naturally.
And this both irritates and scares me.
On the other hand, you are just unlucky
. All my accumulated irritation just happened to explode when I read your comment. So divide the scale of hostility by about 80 and that’s about the right scale.
Handan
said,
May 31, 2007 at 11:35 am
Alan:
What you call “group mentality” in your first comment would be more appropriately defined as sweeping generalization, which is worth a good discussion but quite different from the theme of this one.
Kris:
I agree with your observation about discriminative application of moral standards to different circles of relationships. Yet I’m skeptical that this could be attributed to Confucian teachings.
I’m not saying that we live in a post-confucious China, though. I’m just hesitant to hold Confucious accountable for this specific social practice.
I actually see the influence of Confucian philosophy deeply woven in today’s Chinese society, although the vast majority, myself included, may not be able to articulate Confucian ideas. Yet what we call Confucian thoughts today is the result of dynasties of deliberate misinterpretation of that plain wise guy’s original thoughts. All too often, Confucious quotes are taken out of context and pushed to the extreme, as one of the many ways of distorting its meaning. Alas, too many evils have been done in the name of Confucious…hmm.
Maria:
I like your story very much. Thanks for sharing. Reminds me of the heartbreaking fight I had with my pa about the fun of backpacking. It started out as a casual talk the day before an American friend of mine was coming to get back her huge backpack from my place. He said this whole backpacking thing is “oh so silly”. I was a bit offended and argued that, for one thing, it’s actually fun; for another, you don’t just go call something silly when you are not able to feel the fun of it. “Not being able to feel the fun? Are you calling me a narrow-minded loser inferior to your western friends who know how to enjoy backpacking?” my father roared at me.
I was stunned and hurt, but still tried to keep talking, saying that it’s just a difference. It’s not about supriority. He wouldn’t listen. He was trapped in his inferiority complex. (excuse me for saying this about my father, but I have to say what I see as truth. )
Anyway, Maria, you see it could get a lot worse than your different choice not being appreciated:-)
Rene
said,
May 31, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Zuraffo,
Thanks for your response. I’m glad to discuss this with you further.
I wholly agree with you on misconceptions of the Cultural Revolution and the factual inaccuracies related to the simplification of the language.
With respect to what I have said, is it that you are objecting to my choice of terms when I say “suffer in silence”? It seems like you are, but I want to be clear.
I agree that perhaps the term does have a negative connotation, but I assert that the essential meaning is true, that these students are put in a situation they don’t want to be in without the option to extricate themselves. Conventionally we would label such a situation “suffering in silence.” I don’t know of a convenient English phrase that would put a positive spin on it while retaining all the meaning. Perhaps you are right to say that the situation builds character, but the underlying condition is what it is, and beyond the terminology used to described it, it seems like you and I are speaking about two sides of the same coin.
heilong
said,
June 1, 2007 at 8:28 am
@zuraffo: I totally agree with what you said about misconceptions about China. When ever I try to speak my own ideas on the subject to my peers Im always shot down. Its like these people who know little about China actually know all the facts about how “China has no human rights”,”China aborts baby girls”,”Save Taiwan”,”Free tibet” and my fav “China is communist so of coarse they are bad”….this is the crap I have to put up with if I want a serious talk about China at home.
@Rene: I think your write about suffer in silence thing, I remember how a Chinese student of mine exclaimed in whispers how he thinks living in a dorm with the other chinese who are from a diffrent city is like “Hell”. I wanted to kill himself and was afraid to return home as his parents needed him to finish collage.
My chinese wife lives with me in my family house, I have 3 brothers and 2 sisters. I also have a son, It really gets to her living in a house with so many people, how they speak too loud sing and listen to music too loud, she has had at least 3 breakdowns and keeps want to go back to china to be with her mother. She has had 2 breakdowns since I got back from 6 months in shenyang(because of her other breakdowns.) and I have only been home 2 months. So not all Chinese can stand overcrowding.
Amberite
said,
October 27, 2007 at 9:17 pm
I just had to come around and comment on this… however belated it might be…
I’m currently working at a pretty affluent college in Yangzhou. Since I’m a foreign teacher, they’ve given me two dorm rooms put together for my apartment — FAR more space than I could possibly need, though from the setup I’m guessing that this is the kind of apt. they’d give a teacher couple too, and that would make more sense.
The dorm rooms are normally shared by four students each, or two teachers. The thing I find surprising or noteworthy in all this is that the room size is twice the size of an American double dorm, or four times the size of an American single — you could literally divide the rooms into quarters and have American single dorms. Maybe a *little* on the small side, but I’ve seen ones that size. I’ve slept in ones that size.
So it’s certainly not lack of space that’s putting so many students together here, though it might be the case elsewhere.
I would say the collective action I have observed so far is not only simple lack of confrontation… both in stores and in the school administration, people always seem to work cooperatively on tasks that I, the loner American, would stalk off on my own to attempt. It’s a different mindset and it does seem to flow naturally from the circumstances of life here, though I don’t claim a deep understanding as of yet.
ed hardy
said,
June 26, 2009 at 1:42 am
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